Am I and My Dog Ready for Novice?
Can My Dog Work Out on a Treadmill?
Should My Border Collie Have Puppies?
Devious Chicken Chaser
Finding Time to Work a Dog
Guard Dog and Herding Dog all in one?
Why Herd Sheep?
Excited Puppy
Chasing Chickens
Can a dog trained to work Sheep be used to work Cows?
Trained Dog Too Expensive?
Training an older dog and a mixed breed dog to work sheep
Penning sheep
Do You Have a Question?
Would you like to answer a question?

Am I and My Dog Ready for Novice?

Question:  So you think you may be ready to compete in novice.  Before filling out that entry blank, here are some questions to ask yourself before entering.

Answer:  1) Can my dog do an outrun of at least 100-150 yards?  2) Are my dog's lift and fetch quiet and controlled?  3) Can my dog do a short drive or wear?

If you cannot answer yes confidently to any one of these questions, then more practice is in order before thinking about competing.  Novice should be viewed as a step toward pro-novice, so prepare ahead of time and do your homework.  The trial field is not a place to try to fix problems, or to hope that this time your dog won't chase sheep all over the field.  Leave the schooling for home or clinics.

What can you do to become prepared to run in a novice trial?  An important thing to remember is that working livestock is a partnership between dog and person.  Not only does the dog need experience on stock, but so does the handler.  You need to know livestock, how they think , and how they respond to pressure from dogs and people.  This is a must, even if you do not personally own livestock.  A great way for people to gain stock experience is by volunteering to work in the setout pens at trials.  It is a great way to help out the club and you will gain insight into handling stock.  Attend several trials and watch open and pro-novice runs to see how sheep are handled by more seasoned handlers and dogs.  Talk to the handlers.  Most are willing to answer questions and to share their experiences.

For your dog, our club offers several excellent clinics with top-notch clinicians throughout the year.  This is an excellent way for an experienced person to watch you and your dog, and then to pinpoint problems and show how to deal with them.

The point of this answer is not to scare anyone away from entering a novice trial, but to help ensure a positive first trialing experience for you and your dog. 

Samantha Jones, Auburndale WI

Can My Dog Work Out on a Treadmill?

Question:  When our old border collie died, we decided to take our time replacing him.  Our ten-year-old son finally persuaded us to get another to be his special pet.  After years of our staid, elderly Zeke, Keet has proven to be quite a handful.  He is now a year old and only my husband can make him behave.  Taking him on walks is exhausting.  Hours of Frisbee tossing barely make a dent in his energy level.  What to do?

Answer:  I confess that the above letter is true -- but a fake.  The rambunctious border collie is owned by my now 11-year-old grand-nephew, and I have been "consulting" sine he purchased the puppy.  Keet is happy, kindly, headstrong and full of ideas for having fun.  He has started on sheep and has shown wonderful natural ability.  However, herding sheep once a month does not help with the general exercise problem.  I also want to pint out that this is not a sedentary family.  Both Mom and Dad train and compete in the yearly Madison Ironman event which comprises 2.5 miles of swimming, 112 miles of biking and the standard 26 mile run.  He has run with a bike, but this hasn't been possible during our long, snowy winter.  Then I had a bright idea.  They have a treadmill!

Here is my niece's description of Keet's introduction to the machine.  "At first I would lead him on and hold him by his collar while I turned it on.  He was so nervous, he was not the least interested in the treat I had for him.  Once I get it going, I crank the speed up right away.  This increases his focus and forces him to work to keep his balance.  He discovered very early that if he tried so go off the side, he will fall over.  Now he runs right downstairs; and once I lead him onto the treadmill, he gets right to work.  I still hold his collar until the speed picks up.  He jogs along easily at about 6 miles an hour with a 5% grade.  Today he did 3 miles in the morning and 2 miles this afternoon.  I don't have to hold him at all anymore while he goes.  I have a TV in front of the machine (so I don't get too bored).  I think Keet sees this as his "work right now.  It is absolutely solving our excess energy problem!"

Jean Bass, Verona WI

Should My Border Collie Have Puppies?

Question:  We have had Border Collies for the last 16 years. I would like a female. Can she have puppies? We have a new male and he is awesome. We have cattle and we know what Border Collies love to do. Thank you. CK

Answer #1:  I would think long and hard before breeding Border Collies. There is a lot more to it than just having two intact dogs. As a foster home for rescue, I can tell you that the demand for good BCs is there, but there are a lot more dogs than there is a need for. If you check out your local humane society, or craigslist.org/pet & petfinder.com, there are always BCs available. You could also check out mwbcr.org and 2ndchanceborcercollierescue.org. They are just two of the many local rescue groups. Please check out these websites before deciding to breed. But, if you do decide to breed your dogs, there are several things to think about beforehand.  1. Are both of them working dogs? That doesn't mean great at frisbee, flyball, agility or obedience, although there is nothing wrong with doing those things with your dogs. Your BCs should work livestock: sheep, cattle, pigs (something other than cats) on a regular basis; and they should do it well, if you are planning to breed them. By the time you have put some training on them, they will be at least 2 or 3 years old. 2. Do both dogs have good temperaments? 3. Are your dogs free of hereditary health problems like hip dysplasia, CEA (collie eye anomaly) or epilepsy? 4. Can you afford the time it takes to raise a litter of puppies? You should be there when the bitch whelps, in case there are problems. The pups may need to go to the vet. They will need vaccinations & worming on a regular schedule. It takes a lot of time to feed and clean up after the puppies once the bitch starts to wean them. There is also a lot of time to be put in socializing them with other people, kids, pets and playing with them. 5. Can you afford the expense of raising a litter? There are many expenses, e.g., testing for hip dysplasia and CEA in the parents, good food for the bitch and puppies, vaccinations, worming and potential emergency vet visits. 6. Are you sure that you have good homes for all of these future puppies? Check out references. Visit the family if possible. Find out why they want a BC and if they have had one before. Will you just be selling to working homes, or will you consider pet homes, too?  Plan to call, visit and/or email and see how the pups are doing once they get to their new homes, check again periodically to see how their training is going.  The most common reason why a BC ends up in rescue is because they grow up and all of a sudden all the things that were cute in a pup are annoying or dangerous in a grown dog.  Nipping, chasing, digging, chewing, barking...some consistent training goes a long way toward making a dog someone you would like to spend time with.  You can help with that by offering tips or suggesting someone who can help with the training.  7. Are you willing to keep all of the puppies until they do sell? If you cannot answer yes to these questions, you should spay and neuter your dogs.  Not only will this prevent unwanted litters, but there are also health problems that can be avoided.

Laura Wentz, Portage WI

Answer #2:  Another thing you will find that many breeders do is pre-sell a litter.  Let people know that you are considering breeding your dog and to which possible sires.  You will get a good idea as to whether or not there is a demand for your prospective puppies.  If there is indeed a demand, then let those interested know who you will be breeding your female to and when, and start your list of buyers.  I like to have at least six buyers lined up before breeding.  Some of these people may be disappointed if your female ends up having fewer than six puppies and some may drop off your list during the pregnancy.  If you have more than six buyers lined up then you have a waiting list for your next litter or they can take the place of people who drop off the list during the pregnancy.

It is so much less stressful doing it this way.  Then you don't have the difficulty of trying to find buyers for big (6 month old) puppies who have lost their cuteness, especially if you don't have the time or the means to get them started, to sell when they are older.

Breeding dogs and selling puppies is not something to enter into just because you really like your existing dog.  As you will come to realize, there are plenty of great dogs out there to buy.

Amy Armstrong, Verona WI

Devious Chicken Chaser

Question:  We had 26 chickens, a Beagle (Daisy), and a Rottweiler (Zelda).  One day the two dogs got into the chickens and when we came home, Daisy was dead from unknown causes and so were 14 chickens.  About 3 weeks ago another rooster was missing.  We assume that he got out of the pen and Zelda killed him. On another night the chickens were out when we let Zelda out.  She chased a rooster so we scolded her and brought her inside.  Sometimes when we let her out with the chickens, we watch from the window and she seems to know it and behaves.  The night she chased the rooster it was dark and we think she thought we wouldn't see her.  Tonight we found a dead hen just outside her dog house door.  For a while we thought Zelda was just playing with the chickens but now we know better.  She is smart but also very devious.  She knows when we are in bed or not home to scold her and she does things like getting up on the furniture.  Then she sneaks off before we can catch her in the act.  We put set mouse traps on the furniture to keep her off and after several weeks we just put them in place without setting them.  She soon learned they were no longer a threat and started getting back up.  She also gets into the garbage and digs in the flower beds when we are gone.  We have tried giving her a place to dig, as well as plenty of toys to keep her occupied, all to no avail.  I have read many articles about this chicken/dog problem discussing instinct, hitting, tying a dead chicken to their neck and so on.  Is there any hope of breaking her habit of killing chickens?

Answer:  Ah, if only dogs weren't as good as we are at learning bad habits!  The fact is, we all can learn bad habits, dogs just as easily as people.  Zelda isn't being "devious," she's just learned exactly what she's been taught:  It's okay (and really fun!) to chase chickens when my humans aren't around!  Of course ideally, the first order of business would have been to prevent that kind of bad habit from forming in the first place -- young dogs left loose with chickens are reminiscent of toddlers left home alone with permanent markers and white carpets!  Of course, hindsight is always 20/20, so the question is: now what?  I would find a humane way to house my Rottie so that she can't get herself into so much trouble.  I'd teach her to live comfortably in an outdoor pen or room in the house.  Be sure not to go from letting her run free to being confined all day without going step by step.  Start by feeding her in the enclosure and giving her hollow toys, stuffed with food, to chew on for a few minutes when she's inside.  Gradually increase the period of time you expect her to stay confined.  (Be sure not to confine her outside where she feels like she's on guard duty.  If you use an outdoor pen, put it behind the house or enclose her inside a barn or shed.  Better yet, teach her to be polite and comfortable in the house.)  Meanwhile, when you're outside with her, teach her to run get a toy every time she looks at a chicken.  That's not going to stop her from harassing your chickens if she's 'home alone,' but at least she'll start thinking of something else when she's out with you!

Patricia McConnell, PhD

Finding Time to Work a Dog

Question:  I have trouble finding enough time to work my dog.  He wants to work sheep in the worst way (and it usually IS in the WORST way).  He is a good dog, but his energy level often affects his hearing!  I work full time, have a family and other hobbies, too.  Any suggestions?
 

Answer:

Sounds like my problem.  Last year we had a drought in our area and we were very low on grazing.  I work full time, love to read, love the out-of-doors and need to rest some, too!  I looked around and saw that our lawn and driveway verges still had plenty of grass.  So most days after work, I would grab a lawn chair, a good book, an umbrella and Bert and take the flock out to the driveway.  Bert soon figured out that I didn't want the sheep too near the highway and would stand up anxiously when they got too close.  I would send him on an outrun and bring them back to safety.  Same with the lawn and my precious flower beds.  Several times a week I would get some sun, quality reading and quality time with my dog; and some lawn mowing to boot!  I believe it could be called multi-tasking.
       And, WWSDA member Patricia McConnell, PhD, owner of Dog's Best Friend has suggested, on "Calling All Pets," the public Radio program, occupying your dog's mind by teaching her complicated tricks.  A busy mind can burn as much energy as busy feet.  Jack McCarthy, another WWSDA member, lives in Chicago near Loyola University.  He taught his dog to "read" crossing signals and walk on top of garden walls next to the sidewalk.  His daily walks with Els occupied her mind as well as her feet.

Jean Bass, Verona WI

Guard Dog and Herding Dog all in one?

Question:

We are looking for a dog to protect our goat herd from predators.  We were thinking of a Great Pyrenees, but we would also like a herding dog.  Is there a dog that can do both? Is it possible to have two dogs, one for herding and one for protecting without them killing each other?

 

Answer:

There isn't a breed of dog that will do both guarding and herding.  They are different jobs and the dogs have been bred for centuries to do those specific things.  (Anyone who has had a cross between a guarding breed and a Border Collie can tell you that it just doesn't work.) You are better off getting a Pyrenees or another of the guarding breeds to stay with your flock of goats for protection.  And just like when you are buying a Border Collie, get a dog that comes from working parents.  Then get a Border Collie for the herding.  The guard dog can be easily trained to let a Border Collie work the flock.

Momentarily Anonymous

Why Herd Sheep?

Question:  Could you tell me why sheep need to be herded?

 

Answer:  There are several reasons why we herd sheep.  The first is, that if we tried to use the old grain bucket trick, we'd be trampled by about 400 sheep at our farm!  When we do chores here, we use our dogs to bring the sheep into a field.  Then we fill the feeders and let the sheep back out.  It gives all the sheep a better chance to get an equal amount of feed.

    We herd the sheep when we are doing routine jobs like weighing, sorting, weaning, vaccinating and worming.  The dogs bring the sheep in from the field to an area where we have a large pen with a chute and sorting system.  The way that we have things set up, one person with a dog can move the whole flock through easily.

    We also herd the sheep when they are grazing on the ski hill for the summer.  We use electronet to fence in an area with enough feed for 3-4 days.  Then we take down the fence, move the sheep, and set the fence back up.  Before we had dogs, it would take a couple of hours for us to bring in the 30 sheep that we had then, just to do anything with them.  And it would take 3 adults, 4 kids and whatever neighbors or friends we could scrounge up and even then there was a good chance that we wouldn't be able to get them all in.  We couldn't have even thought about the size of flock we have now.   

Excited Puppy

Question:
 I have a problem with my 6 month old, neutered male Blue Heeler pup.  Last week he put a young goat (6-8 months old) in the creek in front of the house.  I run a large (500+) head of goats.  Dairy and meat and in the front pasture I have young unbred stock.

I have worked with him nonstop since getting him in July at 8 weeks old.  He listens well in the house and also on short-lead.  Long lead NO.  When feeding goats he is on a short lead in the feeding area.  I correct him with a sit or down.  He is never left unattended with the goats, because he is unpredictable and lunges at them.  He will lie down and be quiet while they are eating, but once they start to move he tries to break off the lead and move them. 

On both of the occasions that he injured a goat, he managed to get into the front pasture pen, but I'm not sure how.  Once he put a young goat in the creek, trying to cross her over.  No shouting or anything will stop him.  After I catching him, I move him out of the pen, restrain him and take care of the doe.  In the front pasture when the does get frightened and move, he runs them down and grabs a leg.  This morning I found a fresh bite and several deep wounds.  HELP HELP.  He is not aggressive to people or the large bucks.  He seems to want to please.  His drive to work is strong.  Obviously I need help managing him, so I need to be trained.  He is not housebound.  I work outside 10-12 hours a day.  Problems seem to be happening right after morning chores.  Nothing slows this guy down.

I have a 5 year old spayed female Anatolian Shepard that will not tolerate him.  A 4 year old spayed Pyrenees/Anatolian mix that tolerates him.  A 2 year old neutered male English Mastiff that he is bonded to.  And last of all, a Blue Heeler mix, that is 6 and works very well for me moving my animals.  Never has he injured a goat and he listens very well. 

Answer:
Your puppy isn't old enough yet to handle doing chores yet.  He's fine when the goats are eating but when they start to move away, he wants to herd them.  That's a natural thing for a herding bred dog to do.  I would stop bringing him with you for chores.  It's not fair to him (or the goats) to have sit there and watch and not be able to work sometimes, too.  Keep him away from the livestock unless you can control him or deal with the consequences. 

 Have you started training him yet?  I would work him only in a round pen or a securely fenced area where you can catch him easily.  Put a long line on him for back up.  When you have worked him several times and have a lie down or recall on him that you can rely on then I would start taking him with you for basic chores again.  Start out with the long line on him and put him away when you're done.
 
I think that he's being so rough because he's young yet. If you can't stop him from sneaking off and working goats with them ending up injured, I would think about putting the Anatolian in with the young kids that he's harassing. Sometimes the best correction comes from a guard dog and since you're not involved in the correcting of him, it probably won't turn him off from working.  But you can't allow him to get into the habit of working without you or he won't want to work with you.   Don't give up on him he just needs the time to mature.  

Laura Wentz, Portage WI

Chasing Chickens

Question:

We were recently given a 7 month old Border Collie X Australian Shepherd pup. He started out very well, listening and coming when called.  He is now testing the waters.  Recently he started chasing the chickens in the yard until they crouched down and stopped.  He doesn't hurt them but instead holds them down and gently chews on them without hurting them.  They walk away full of drool when we get him off the chickens.  He is also starting to take interest in our piglets out on the pasture.  Any thoughts on this would be appreciated. 

Also, can you recommend any good videos or books for learning how to train him well.  We have had collie crosses before that just didn't work out, but I think that this puppy has some real potential.  It has been several years since we have had a good Border Collie on the farm to help move cattle and pigs.

Answer:

You have to stop your dog from chasing the chickens.  He sees this as something fun to do, and you are lucky that he hasn't injured or killed any yet.  It doesn't take much to kill a chicken.  The key thing is to catch him and then discipline him.  If you chase him around yelling, that just makes the game more exciting.  I also wouldn't let him out free where the chickens are out.  Have him drag a long line (like a piece of clothesline rope) so you can catch him easily.

 
Further, you can't let a dog work any kind of livestock on his own.  Not chickens, pigs, cattle, sheep, or anything.  Working livestock should always involve a person.  It is a partnership thing.  Once a dog starts working on his own, he won't want to do it with a person because there are too many rules, and he can't just do what he wants.  If you can't be with him when he is outside around your animals, you should tie him or crate him where he can't see the livestock.  It is for his own good in the end, and it is also for the good of your livestock.

 
I would recommend The Dog Listener by Jan Fennell as a good all-around dog behavior book.  Lessons From A Stockdog by Bruce Fogt and A Way of Life by Glyn Jones are good stockdog training books.   For videos, Starting Your Border Collie on Cattle, Sheep or Ducks from Rural Route Videos, Stockdog Training Fundamentals, The Basics by Mike Hubbard, and A Hill Shepherd Trains His Border Collies by Derek Scrimgeour.

If things don't work out with your dog for herding, look into getting a puppy or started dog after seeing the parents work, so that you know that there's a good chance that it will work satisfactorily.  You did the right thing to ask for help now.  It is a lot easier to fix a problem in a young dog than to break an established habit in an older dog. 

Laura Wentz, Portage WI

Can a Dog Trained to Work Sheep be used to Work Cows?

Question:

If I buy a dog trained on sheep, will it work my cattle?

 

Answer:

The simple answer is YES!!! In the last several years, I have had the privilege of introducing to dairy cattle eight or ten dogs trained on sheep; and I can honestly say non have failed to make the transition. Some dogs adapt faster than others, and I liked some dogs better than others, but all this had much more to do with my personality, the amount of training on the dog, and the dog's style or temperament rather than the fact that the dog was started on sheep.

There are a number of exceptional dogs owned by WWSDA members, i.e. "Roy", "Pip", "Coon", "Meg", etc. These dogs generally don't work cattle for a living, but I'll bet they are the best "cattle dogs" in the state. The point is that well-bred, well-trained, and well-handled dogs will work all types of stock.

When working stock there are three areas of concern, 1) the handler, 2) the dog, and 3) the stock. In most of our cases, the handler is the weakest link in this chain. Choosing a well-bred dog from working parents will give you a leg up in the second area. And, in time, the stock are a product of the first two areas.

So, if you are planning to purchase a started dog to work your cattle, do your homework. You should read, attend training clinics, watch some training videos, and also be aware that there is nothing that will teach you more than having a young, exuberant dog run a half-a-dozen heifers over the top of you, and then flank around and bring them back over you again from the other side!

Pick a dog that suits you. Most reputable people who have a started dog for sale will help you with this. In most cases, they want this to be a positive experience as much as you do. When you make a decision on a dog, take some time to let the dog settle in and get to know you before going to stock. Then make the introduction slow, steady, and step-by-step. The "baptism by fire" approach may set you back months.  

Ed Sye, Mindoro, WI

Trained Dog Too Expensive?

Question:

Isn't purchasing a trained stock dog for $2,000 or $3,000 a lot of money to put on "just a dog", particularly one that is probably  three or four years old?

Answer:

I'll answer that with this story:  Early this spring I purchased a group of spring freshening Holstein heifers in an effort to take greater advantage of my rotational grazing system.  They seemed to be working into the system well, until the first night the cows went across the road into the "bottoms".  What I forgot to tell these heifers is there are a couple of ditches to the creek that I simply fenced over, but no one is supposed to walk through them, under the fence, to get out.  What these heifers did was to find those areas with new spring grass that have not been grazed in years, and found themselves out beyond the highway bridge in a road ditch. (Beyond the highway bridge is important.)  The nine heifers also showed tremendous leadership capabilities as they led an additional 22 cows, roughly half the remaining herd, out with them.  At midnight a car drove in the yard to inform me that there were cattle on the road just past the bridge.  My first thought was the open heifers.  So I put Brock into the truck, as I'll need to hold those heifers while I find a place to put them back in.  It is an overcast, pitch black night.  As I drive to the bridge, the pickup headlights illuminate the animals.  They are MILK COWS, not just the open heifers!  So I back the pickup across the bridge, turn off the lights, and  put the flashers on.  I stay on the road to watch for traffic and send Brock out across the bridge.  Moments later the cows are coming toward me.  "This is good!"  But now, through the dark, I see they are coming single file on the OTHER side of the guard rail, walking on a three foot concrete ledge with an eighteen foot drop to the creek bottom.  "This is bad!"  My heart is pounding. If someone startles, we are going to have quite an expensive "crash".   Thirty-one cows pass me, and there is Brock, very quietly and calmly bringing many thousands of dollars worth of livestock safely into the cow yard.  

Ed Sye, Mindoro, Wisconsin

Training an older dog and a mixed breed dog to work sheep.

Question:

I have a Great Pyrenees (1 1/2 years) and a Great Pyrenees/Border Collie mix (2 1/2 years) both female. I raised the Pyr, Ursa, from a pup; rescued the mix, Dakota, from town (We've had her for 3/4 of a year). They are both well-socialized to humans and we have corrected a bad bout of fighting between the two. My question is, can we start to work these dogs now, or should we keep them as the "family dogs" and look at getting pups in the future if we want a guard and a herder? We have a small flock of four sheep (which will soon be seven or eight).

Everything I have read concerns training pups. Can Ursa be trained to guard the flock, or is she too attached to us?

Dakota has a good eye toward the sheep but she is very aggressive and I think she would rather take them down by the ear (which she does to Ursa most of the time). If I do try to work her, how do I start (or should I even try)?

Answer:

Give up on the idea of training Dakota to "work" either as a guardian or a herding dog. Half of her genetic heritage is urging her to chase and head livestock, the other half is telling her to guard the livestock against anything that wants to chase them. An impossible situation

I don't know enough about Ursa to give a good answer. Has she been a house dog or an outside dog? If kept outside, has she been left free to naturally patrol your property? Have you ever seen her acting territorial or protective towards unknown people or animals that come on your property? It may be impossible to train Ursa to stay with the sheep at this point. But if the answer to the last few questions was yes, she may already be using her genetic instincts as a guardian in a way that would include her being upset if something threatened your sheep.

By the way, I might add to anyone who is considering adding a "Border Collie Mix" as a stockdog - beware. The two humane societies in my area define anything that is black and white and sort of shaggy as a "Border Collie Mix". Given the fact that black is a dominant coat color for many breeds and given the number of people who own Labrador Retrievers, it is more likely that these dogs are Labrador/AKC Collie/Sheltie mixes.

Beth Miller, Beloit, WI

Penning Sheep

Question:

How do you best practice penning?

Answer:

I don't practice penning. That is, I don't have a pen set up and work over and over on having the dog pen the sheep. Instead, I go back to the basics. In other words, schooling the dog to hold the sheep in a steady fashion, working on his balance point, and getting him thinking. My dog should be able to hold the sheep to any given spot of my choosing. I feel this is the best way to practice. It also helps prevent the dog from going sour at the pen. Sounds simple, right?

Kathy Knox, Butler, MO

Do you have a question?

If you have a herding question that you would like answered, just send us your question and we will try to get you an answer. All questions will be posted. Please include "Penning the Answer" in the subject line of your email message.

Send your questions to Amy Armstrong.

Would you like to provide an answer to a question?

Please include "Penning the Answer" in the subject line of your email message.

Send answers to questions to Amy Armstrong.

WWSDA Home Page | Calendar of Events | Board of Directors | Newsletter Information | Stockdog Links | Email Jean